Category: News and Views
what does everyone think about this event? how many think we should take further measures?
I knew a board would be up about this in no time. My opinion is this. I am glad he is dead, and by our hand, which makes it even better. I understand why our country is celebrating, and I agree. Maybe as a Christian it is wrong for me to be glad about this guy's death. Perhaps it runs contradictory to my faith, I don't know yet. But he has caused too many deaths in the US and in other countries for me to feel sad. However, anyone who thinks that his death is going to solve our problems, end the wars, or make the US safe from attack again is extremely dilusional, and, I fear, sadly mistaken. In some ways, this could have a backlash. To the people who followed Ben Ladin, his death will only make him a martyr, and I guarantee you another will rise to take his place in leadership. In some ways, the US may be in even more danger now, because his followers may wish to take vengance on us for killing him. So, though I'm glad of his death, I think we need to be just as vigilant as we've been, if not more so. In short, it is a temporary victory for us, but only a short-term one.
Just a quick correction. It's Bin Laden, not Ben Ladin. LOL. But I agree. THere are bound to be reprocussions from this. Maybe even another 9'11 as much as I hate to say it. After all, if they'd just successfully assassinated Barak Obama we'd take vengenace against them. Since hwever ou feel about ol' Barak he is our president and I don't see the US meekly sitting back and letting the assasination of our leader go unpunished. Nor will they, assuming of course that it was actually Bin Laden and not just some impersonator. I know that Sodamn Insane had loads of willing impersonators to die for him in the days when he was in power.
grief-S H O C K-grief
I was relieved to hear about his death also, and hope it's the real thing and not someone impersonating him that died. But I also agree with Post 2, that even though he's dead doesn't mean it's the end. I can't be sure if there'd be someone to take his place, but I wouldn't be surprised either if his followers decide to get revenge. Still, it is a relief to hear that one of the most-wanted terrorists in the world is gone.
Exactly. They're going to want revenge for this, even if for a while they are demoralized in the immediate aftermath.
I think that over time, this could cause a spike in tererist activities. I also think this will build more tention between us and Pakastan. I stayed up late lastnight watching the news, and going crazy! I think it was so heart warming to hear the sound of people shouting, "U.S.A" and I think it was awesome how some people were dancing on there trucks and other people were thrown in excitement. God has answered my prair. Altho it does not bring closure, it is 1 step forward.
I agree. We can't afford to get complacent.
WOO HOO!!!!! Way to go! Now the asshole is some place where he can never hurt another human being.
True, but his supporters can and will...assuming of ourse that it wasn't some impersonator. I remember several incidents involving the capture or death of what they thought was Saddam Hussein only to discover later that it was an impersonator. So I'm not entirely certain that it was Bin Laden. And like I said, even if it was is supporters are out there and they'll do whatever it takes to avenge his death.
I'm glad he's dead. However, my very first thought upon hearing the news was "They'll definitely try to get back at us for killing him." So we should celebrate for a day or two and then get back down to being serious about preventing more terrorist attacks.
Al-Qaeda would want to commit terrorist attacks against us regardless of whether Bin Laden was killed. I'm glad he has been found and killed. We must not forget all the terrorist attacks in the US, the UK, Iraq, Afghanistan, Spain, Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, Egypt and other countries that were committed by al-Qaeda.
ps: Rachel, I don't know what additional measures can be taken against Bin Laden nowthat he has been killed.
His end, unlike the Bush-inspired misdirected Iraq war, was a complete testament to Western military efficiency, the sort of efficiency terrorists need to see.
Many people were involved, not in the Fox News spin jobs of the earlier war, but in the very deliberate acquisition of accurate intelligence, the endless drills and preparation, and ultimately the take-down.
Personally I'd like to see them all publically decorated, but understand the unassuming nature and needed secrecy of Special Forces types. Some of my relatives are these.
Here is where I disagree with many on here and elsewhere: Sure, there are probably people who will want revenge. However, humans are by nature pretty fickle and if past is prologue, we're likely to see a lot of defectors. The man's dead: he was their hope. Bin Laden was always working to keep the Taliban from factionalizing, which they are so prone to do. They are like any other group of zealots; they are perfectly capable of killing each other.
I'm betting we'll see them blaming each other even if they never put it on TV: remember we walked in under their nose, had a full firefight / cleared the building and took him. We also got a lot of intelligence from this, which in the long run may be more useful than even his death was, as important an event as that was.
Now, if we continue to act with such efficiency, giving our few-in-numbers Special Forces the right intel and no longer make up funny stories about alleged weapons of mass destruction, I think we can do serious damage to the terrorist groups over there.
When the Romans invaded Europe, it was their efficiency that ultimately demoralized the factionalized tribes and chieftains to the point they surrendered. The Taliban is equally factionalized, based solely on their version of religion and their ability to take advantage of economically and politically destabilized societies.
They're funded by oil. The conservatives cnow call oil "American energy". This is only true of oil taken from American reserves. Otherwise, it's Saudi and Iranian energy, paying for people who sustained Bin Laden. Until we bring the moneybags to their knees, we aren't yet finished, IMHO. Zealots are remarkably incapable of sustaining themselves: they must be artificially sustained by donors. And in the case of Bin Laden's group, you and I have been feedin' 'em, because voters lack the balls to demand a commitment to get off foreign oil. Oh, and in the words of somebody's dear Dr. Laura, a commitment means a ring and a date.
So, 66 years after Hitler's death, Bin Laden dies: we can watch the superstitious have themselves a day with that one, sorta like free day at the zoo. But let's get our ass off foreign oil and quit calling Saudi energy American energy. Dry that sommabitch right up, and they'll either have to start working for a living or starve. There is a direct correlation between the rise of the oil empire in the middle East and the rise of the zealous brand of groups that produced the Taliban.
Had to go, but I agree with Sister Dawn. We need to still watch. You know my first thought was for his wives. I wonder how one could love a man such as him. I suppose he had a human side as a loving parent and laughed and all, but had his business side as well.
personally I do not believe he is dead one bit.
If it was really him, and this weren't some stunt to either get Obama relected or provide some closure to the 9/11 attacks, then why haven't we actually seen any tangible evidence?
as a member of a country that was dragged into this war on terror, I think we have a right to see real evidence and examine it for ourselves rather than just taking the US military's word for it, because quite frankly I don't trust it.
Secondly, to all those people who think this is cause for celebration, dancing and singing in the streets etc, you disgust me.
I can't put it in any other words than that. I have been disgusted watching people dancing and partying at the site of the Trade centre because he was killed.
I view his death as a necessary one, sort of like the putting down of an animal that is too risky to keep alive, but at what cost has his death come?
it has come at the cost of thousands and thousands of innocent civillian lives, much more than those who died at the World Trade Centre. It has come at the cost of the displacement of millions of people who are now forced out of their countries or into homelessness because of the military action against Afghanistan and Iraq.
It has come at the cost of the invasion of entire countries who will now be exploited for their recourses by companies too dirty to ever trade fairly with the middle east.
and will this be the end of it?
will the middle east be left alone now to govern itself as it wishes?
I don't think so.
so no. this is not a time for celebrating.
Say that to the families of the 911 victims. All those fire fighters tnat were lost that day.
Yeah. You might just get the stuffing beaten out of you. I'm sure some of them would.
From a purely pragmatic point of view, it's good that he is no longer living. He can never again orchestrate the murder of innocent people or spread his poison to the sheep that followed him. It is no cause to celabrate though. I find that pretty abnoxious personally. They do have confirmed DNA and I would assume that pics/video will be released at some point, when it is no longer classified information. And already, the republicans are slamming President Obama about this. hey guys, you had eight years to accomplish this task and you failed. So, sit back, shut up, and eat some humble pie for a change. In addition, it's quite disturbing that he was in a huge mansion not far from the capital. Also, his compound was less than one thousand feet from Pakistan military training grounds. Thanks a lot guys. Thanks for helping. wtf. They will have some tough questions to answer behind closed doors I'm sure. If US special forces and the Seals hadn't nailed the scumbag, who knows how long he would have been sheltered/hidden away. I don't agree with the two wars we're involved in. They are sources of risk and expense we really don't need. You can thank our previous President for those quagmires.
Also, what bothers me are all of these clips they are showing everywhere, the whole "god bless America", and other god related nonsense that various groups and countries spew fourth. Religion is what brings about the majority of this garbage in the first place. All this destruction, murder, and sorrow, all over man made myths. Quite depressing actually. I just don't see how people could hurt or kill each other over something they have never heard or seen etc. It makes no sense. In a way, it's very child like. And the way that various people have used their religion/their god to justify truely awful deeds, it's very disturbing. The hateful things said and done in the name of god... If there were a god, I think he would be pretty disappointed with the whole mess. This may be OT to some, but, I think it is related to this recent news item above.
Regarding the comments on the middle east above... I must disagree. Not sure if you've watched the news lately, but I don't think many people are happy living under appressive corrupt dictatorships where saying or tweeting something can get you thrown in jail, beaten, raped, or, make you "disappear". Where one percent of the population are millionaires while most people make approx fourty dollars a month or less, where you don't have the right to express yourself, where your phone lines and computers are tapped, your property and or your family can be taken away by the state with no explanation, not following strict apressive state religious laws will get you tortured and/or killed, you can't have honest elections, can't have peaceful protests, and where women have little to no rights at all. And you're a woman... Explain this point of view of yours further because I would be very interested in hearing it. You and I are both living in countries where we have many rights and priviledges that the majority of people in many Islamic nations do not. So, think about that for a while. I don't agree with the two wars we're involved in, because of how we got into them in the first place. However, hopefully we're helping a bit. Since the US and others arrived in both countries, there have been various civic, social, and humanitarian programs setup that will hopefully make a difference. For many of them, including Afghan civilians, they are risking their lives to help others. There have been many attacks by Afghan hard liners against groups trying to help women with basic health care, education, etc. Also, I'm sure you saw the story about the little Afghan girl who got battery acid thrown in her face because she was trying to go to school. That sickens me and this is why someone needs to go into these places and let them know that they can not trample on the basic rights that all humans should have from birth. But, you think they should just be left alone to their own devices ay? If that isn't what you mean, then by all means, clarify your position.
Post 19 is not OT, though some equally foolish fundamentalists here would call what's been going on a war with Islam, it is not and, aside from Fox News and related media, it has not been.
All of Islam is not opressive. I know that human rights are important, but the religious and wealthy fools will be with us as long as the world turns. We have it here as well, just different. Smile. No matter how he was gotten someone is gonna have something to say about how it should have been done better. The beast was slain, and the people celebrated. Its human.
I can't believe the amount of conspiracy rubbish that's doing the rounds. If Bin Laden is still alive, we'll surely hear from him in a video in the near future.
Many of those who demand evidence of his death are the sick types who watch the planes going into the World Trade Centre over and over again. If they get any evidence, they'll find something, something that normal people wouldn't have noticed, and use it as the basis for their latest conspiracy theory.
Anybody who is disgusted by the celebrations of Bin Laden should be asked to provide evidence of their disgust at every terrorist attack carried out by al-Qaeda while Bin Laden was alive. Not just 9/11, not just 7/7, but every attack. They should be made to show through their cyber footprint and other means that they have expressed more disgust against terrorist attacks than they have against those who celebrate when the leader of the group responsible for those attacks has been killed.
Is celebration banned? When the world wars ended, people in this country celebrated our victory. It's normal to celebrate success. If my team wins the play-offs, I'll be celebrating their success, regardless of whether my celebrations offend fans of rival teams.
Those condemning people for celebrating need to remember Bin Laden is dead - not in power. That means we still have the freedom to celebrate.
It's disgraceful that anyone could say that those of us who are disgusted by the celebration of bin laden's death weren't disgusted by the acts of terrorism such as the london bombings or 9/11. Australians were also killed in the Bali bombings. Of course I feel sorry for the families who lost loved ones in any of these attacks, but that doesn't mean I am not entitled to be disgusted at some of the more narow minded reactions to either the terrorist attacks, the burning of the koran or the celebrations of muslim extremest, or the killing of Osama bin laden.
As for the lack of rights in such countries, the fact that they do not have such rights does not therefore give America the right to try and force upon them what they think they should have and exploit them for their oil while they are at it.
As a woman I realise that women in such countries do not have the same freedom that I do, but I also have many muslim female friends who I have discussed this with at length, and while we often feel shock and disgust at their way of life, that is totally different to how they feel about it. they accept that they do not have as many rights as men because of their religious beliefs and get on with it.
they know full well that we are capable of doing a lot more with our lives, but if given the choice, as many immigrants are, they choose to stick to their own ways, which is fine by me, because it is not for me to judge what is good for people who are not me.
and if we relaly cared for humanity and the rights of everyone to have democracy, then why haven't we done something about China, North Korea and all the other little dictatorships that exist today?
the answer is is that for the most part our governments don't care, especially if that dictatorship can stand up for itself or has nothing of value to offer.
while I can see why someone who had lost a loved one in a terrorist attack might feel the need to celebrate, let's be honest here the majority of the people whooping and cheering and waving flags were not victims of 9/11 but bandwagon-jumpers.
I do not think it is a bad thing that he is dead. But one can feel that death is right without needing to woop and cheer about it in the streets. I do not understand the motivation of doing that and it doesn't sit right with me at all.
Yes, there are some immigrants who choose to keep the culture/traditions from their homeland when they move to the US, Canada, Europe, etc. and yes, some are genuinly fine with things the way they are in the countries where they are or where they came from. But, keep this in mind. Due to social conditioning and being a second class citizen, or on par with a slave in some cases, most of them would have an automatic reaction by that point. "Oh yes, it's fine." It's fine that I'm not allowed to vote or have a job, it's fine that my husband is allowed to basicly rape me when he feels the need, it's fine that when I am accused of something with no real trial, no actual evidence, and no legal representation, I can be stoned to death. Of course someone will learn to accept something if they know that not accepting it will get their jaw broken for example. And the reason that someone has to do something to help is that no human being deserves to be repressed or abused because they happened to be born in a certain location. Also, keep in mind that religion itself is a form of brainwashing. (Mostly the main three monotheistic religions.) So, cuppel that with government propoganda, and of course many are fine with it. It would be nice if more nations had the balls to try and do something about it. It would be nice if it did not have to be military action. In most cases though, humanitarian groups and the like are not allowed in many countries, and they are not safe there to begin with. It would be nice if you could knock on the king/dictators door and say "Excuse me, would you mind dragging your country out of the 1500s and stop treating your people like animals please?" As we've seen though, that approach accomplishes nothing. and yes, something should be done about north korea, iran, cuba, etc. And as far as foreign oil, come on now. The west has been their bitch for decades now. I get so tired of hearing that. Noone is "stealing" their oil. They get paid very well. It's not our fault that they don't filter down their profits to those in need in their respective countries. (Although Kidaffi has been burning his oil fields because he's got his panties in a bunch.) Western nations, the US included, fork over billions of dollars to those countries for their oil. It's the main reason any of them have the wealth they do in the first place. They have us by the balls, and they know it. It's a shame many countries are so dependent on it. Let's hope that solar energy, wind farms, hydro, and electric/hybrid cars etc really start being taken seriously as oil is a finite resource to begin with. But, that is a whole other topic I suppose.
To add to what Senior said earlier:
Why have the feminists been so incredibly silent on this one? Note, these are the people, gentlemen, who if they hear an off-color joke, not directed at them, and they overhear it in the hallway of a workplace, will go and report themselves as offended, get a big prize for it, and have somebody ousted over it.
And yet, when the Taliban drags women into the streets and burns them to death, stones them to death, etc. for the incredible crime of showing too much bare skin, they just can't be bothered. If anyone still respected that movement in the 90s, that respect would've gone based on their responses, or lack thereof, as the West finally became aware of the attrocities in the Middle East.
As an example, Egypt at one time was a progressive nation with artists, innovators, etc. until the recent influx of these religious zealots.
So while my response to Bin Laden's death was one more of "mission accomplished", a sense of relief and pride in the ones who carried it out, you would not have seen me dancing like a primitive in the streets. However, I see it on Facebook too: The same ones disgusted by this behavior are eager to rush to the defense of these paternalistic regimes.
I take it they understand they can't possibly be credible anymore.
Guitar god, I remember hearing about the little girl in Afghanistan who got doused with acid, I believe I heard she was 2 and playing outside. Also if I'm not mistaken a tavern owner somewhere on the cape that I believe has some kind of a family inheritance or something like that paid to bring her to Boston for medical treatment. This man shows his largesse treating someone truly in need, while American "feminists" continue to fight for unfettered abortion rights and the need for more female plumbers & pipefitters, while Muslim female immigrants get thrown from rooftops to reclaim the so called family honor and other such nonsense.
I have a friend that rarely tells me stories about atrocities in these countries, but every time he hears some nonsense on Fox News or some other such source, like "Oo, Egypt being more conservative women dress less like westerners", or women in East Pobunkistan get texted with notice of a divorce, all I can think is "Whoopee, did she escape with her life?" I know one woman who didn't even get this texted notice, just found all of her now ex husband's stuff gone when she got home from work one day. Yippee, how about getting pissed about little girls having their God given sexual anatomy crudely torn off, or about women getting disfigured for the crime of rejecting an arranged marriage?
I saw a story on www.msn.com about little girls (infants) being sorely neglected in India and even killed "so we can try for a boy." Indian feminists say nothing about female feti/infanticide for fear of seeming to want to do with womens' sacred "freedom to choose." Like a lot of people in my neck of the woods, they seem most eager to defend the people and practices that are most likely to abuse and kill 'em.
I as a christian am so thankful to God that the military was able to accomplish this task. I even have some doubts though as to if it is really him.
Squid, yes, the whole female circumcision thing is extremely barbaric and the only purpose it serves is to permanantly deprive females of sexual gratification. As for the sewing up of the vagina, that is also beyond me. The whole honor killing thing is abhorrant as well, and, where are the feminists? Interesting question. How people can do those sort of things and sleep at night, I have no clue. however, again, outdated bronze age religious customs and views enforced on the population via a totallitarrian ruling apparatus, well, a just society for all isn't in the cards. You see it again and again throughout history I'm sad to say. Now, this next part will probably offend many, but, I'm writing it anyways... (See next post.)
Things would be a lot simpler if believers in a "god" would treat that as what that is, and what that is, is an opinion. No more, no less. It is not fact. What's dangerous, and counter productive to man kind evolving, is when one group gets it into their head that they are superior and what they are doing is just because their god is the true god and all others are an afront to their god. General examples include torture, slavery, murder, (sometimes on a genicidal scale), forced conversion, rape, and the list goes on. The main players have been Islam, and, Christianity. Yes, I said it. Christianity. If you don't believe me, or won't believe me, go and read the old testament up through the last page of revilation, then we'll debate. God, according to his perfect book, is a cruel jealous bipolar ego maniac. I used to be a believer. I am very familiar with it. In the UK and on mainland Europe, the Catholic, Prodistant, and church of england, all three had dirty deeds done in their name, namely torture and execution. In Spain, you had the cruelist arm of the inquisition, where hideous forms of torture were employed to get supposed harraticks to sign confessions. The invasion of north and south America, the murder of many of it's inhabitants, ransacking of cities, tons of gold and other precious items taken back to Europe, destroying their culture, art, and literature among other things, and forcing their opinion of god onto anyone left. When the Puritans came to North America to escape religious persecution, they ended up having a lot of twisted laws and views and though they were persicuted, they did the same in the new world, because they felt it was their divine right from their god. Interestingly enough, if it hadn't been for the native americans assistance, they never would have survived to begin with. It's ironic and sad. Then you have the Salem Witch Trials, which god played a part in too. (God, and a recently discovered strain of bacteria in grain that may have made them hallucinate for a time.) Finally, let's concentrate on the Catholic Church... First off, Hi, we're missionaries, here to save you from everlasting hell and damn nation. here, believe in our book, nevermind that we're going to totally shit on your own culture, whatever that may be. Oh, and here's some rice so you don't starve before we get past Genesis. we've got priests abusing alter boys, which the church tried to cover up, and let's not forget their stance on birth control, mainly on condoms, which has resulted in an untold number of teen age pregnancies all over the world, STD transmission, and the suffering and death of huge numbers due to contracting HIV/AIDS. At the moment, the rough estimate is thirty million dead. The Vadican should be held at least partially responsible. Oh, and what's with the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in ill begotten riches that they have... Perhaps it would be the Christian thing to do to give that back. I won't hold my breath though. and before I forget, it boggles my mind that churches etc don't have to pay taxes.
I have to agree with Guitargod1 in this case. I truly believe at least half the wars in history wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been for religion, and all these extremists claiming to be defending their god, or other such claims. I really don't mind those who are content to go about practicing their religion in a moderate manner, but the people who claim their god was victorious because other living, breathing human beings in the world are dead absolutely disgust me.
Ah, that brings me to another point though. The indoctrination of children. Some think it's harmless. i am not one of those people. A child's brain is not fully developed. As a result, he or she does not have the same mental capacity to seperate fact from fiction as an adult does. Therefor, I think it's irresponsible to force your specific set of religious beliefs on a child. They should be able to make their own decisions, free of pressure and brainwashing, once they are fully developed mentally. Further to this, the main three monotheistic religions do not offer much regarding moral values in the first place. Go ahead, read their texts. They really don't. The majority of the time, the leaders are more concerned with striking fear into their flocks. and yes, that goes for the ten commandments too. And, look at the letters from Paul. Now there is a guy with some serious issues. Also, it's interesting that when something good happens, so many are quick to say that it must have been god who made it happen. However, when something catastrophic occurs, it was part of god's plan. Really? If god's plan involves the drowning of thousands of random innocent people in a tsunami for example, then that sounds like one messed up plan to me.
I completely agree with Guitargod. If I ever have children, the key word being IF, I'm going to let them decide for themselves, when they feel the time is right, what they choose to believe in. If they decide to go Wiccan or to follow the Greek or Norse gods then so be it. But I totally agree about the Catholic church. THat's why I get extremely wary whenever I meet a Catholic. My most recent x was Catholic, though thankfully she didn't hold with the no birth control crap. In fact that's one of the main reasons my mom, who was raised Catholic herself, turned away from the faith. But it's definitely ironic that people can be so ardently for areligion when its history is rife with torture, rape and worse. Of course they'd try to say it never happened and that history has wronged them.
I'll deal with just folks of just about any religion if they're respectful and not looking to force that faith or lack of faith on anyone. One of my guy friends is an open atheist. What bothers me about the Roman Catholic Church, and this has little if anything to do with the average practitioner up here but with the hierarchy, is their covering up for and transferring abherrant priests rather than defrocking 'em. I believe it was Paul Shanley who was known to keep materials from homosexual social organizations. Another tested positive for at least one sexually transmitted disease. One young man struggled with mental illness throughout adolescence before committing suicide by drowning following his sexual abuse by a priest. Now there was one false accusation against a priest that was made by an adult female congregant. The man was no where near her parish when she claims he had an affair with her, but I don't know how the hierarchy can sleep at night knowing they allowed these people to do what they did. Wouldn't the church have more money to help people in the community through food banks and with affordable housing if they hadn't paid deviants' legal bills? And I don't agree with those who say "Oh, if only they were allowed to marry, those priests wouldn't have done that." Nonsense...they were free to walk away from the priesthood, and instead they raped kids, male children at that. They couldn't have been looking at traditional marriage.
Look up the Chamorro people of Guam for more on the history of being forced to accept Christianity. These people were publicly punished if they were caught observing pagan rituals.
The tribal peoples of northern Africa were originally Christian but forced to accept Islam. Some, post the civil war in Algeria, have started returning to Christianity.
Atheism, any religion, I can deal with, but if it's forced...see most recent thread under Philosophy & Religion in Safe Haven...that's where I draw the line, and many who grew up under Communism were subtly taught every day not to believe in anything.
It's things like that that have turned me off to religion over the years. Because I don't care to have to deal with the biggots who would tell me I was wrong if I didn't subscribe to every bit of doctrin that a given religion preached. Because I don't doubt there would be some that I didn't.
And while we're at it, since Osama bin Laden was the original subject, what is it with those, on another board, with idiotic statements like "The silence in the Middle East is quite telling." Huh? If someone's not drunk and whooping it up in the streets, they're not celebrating? You can't just quietly be happy?
Now some of the folks on that particular board are smarter, like military personnel who have been stationed in a number of places and been expected to adapt to some local customs, but others it's like hello? What planet are you from? Do you really think people in the middle east live by United States Constitutional Democracy? Do you really think they are offered the First Amendment?
Now I can't vouch for any place but Mr. Squid's native Algeria, but these people are not given freedom of speech or assembly. The place has been in a state of emergency for the last 10 or so years. It was in a state of emergency the two times I was there. You do not have the right to assemble, and there are both secular and religious zealot assassins...murderers of civilians, including elderly & children...living freely in society with civilians & partaking of its benefits, and you are not free to speak out against that fact. They had until a certain date to surrender their arms & were promised amnesty, they did, and they got it regardless of how others feel. Megan's Law...where Americans have access to lists of sex offenders living near them...wouldn't even work there, much less the First Amendment.
In the Palestinian Territories Palestinian Christians...no one for that matter...had the right to even watch director Mel Gibson's "Passion of the Christ." They had to get it bootleg or go without. Do you really think demonstrations there are anything but staged? Maybe, but I kind of doubt it. Some folks really do need to wake up and smell the coffee.
I forget if it was this board or another, but someone wondered how so many women could love OBL. I don't think marriage is about love in those parts, but survival & procreation.
GuitarGod you forgot about the fundamentalists in our country who have co-opted one particular political party. I'm not so much calling you out on that, as this is only one example of what I'm saying here:
Using the fundamentlists in America and in the Middle East as an example, we can see they generally follow the money trail. The way they get the masses' support is not by trying to convince them their personal financial ruin is in their personal best interest: No, they do it by posing as spokespeople for their religion.
I notice rather than using many modern examples you frequently use the Crusades: Well, these were marketed as religious wars, while in reality they were spice and trade routes wars. They were some of the most expensive in history. And because the armies sent to fight them were not properly equipped with provisions, they sacked European communities along the way, presumably Christian or mostly so.
Anything that is defensible stands on its own merit, so I will not defend any one, but I think it's clear that what we're dealing with here whether it's the American Fundamentalists / Christian Right, or the Oil-sponsored Muslim fundamentalist, is very simple. We have a very successful mechanism for controlling resources. In both instances, you have religious leaders lacing politics into their religions and political leaders lacing religion into their politics. It probably has little to do with the religions in question.
As an analogy: I read a speech once by the CEO of McDonald's to a group of students at Harvard Business School. He asked: "What do you think our main business is?" One of the students rather embarrassed by what he thought was a foolish question responded "Sir, you sell burgers and fries."
Sounds reasonable, but the CEO responded, "Our main business is real estate."
Think about it: You look at a McDonald's, not the building or what it serves, but where it's located. How would *you* like to own just one of those lots and lease it to whomever? Ever seen one in a less than prime location?
And so it is with these fundamentalist groups: instead of dealing in real estate, they're dealing in political power and control of resources. The religions for these groups are just the burgers and fries that make this scheme viable.
My guess is the Catholic hierarchy slept very well at night, simply because their end game was to prevent a supposed unnecessary drain on their resources - lawsuits that would cost in the many millions or more worldwide. The religion itself probably has little to do with any of it: it's just the medium by which they acquire and maintain resources.
The story of the primitive tribe written by Jack London comes to mind. I don't remember the title, but the character I'm thinking of is The Bug: one who could sing encouraging and teaching songs - political and religious, and formed an elite hierarchy that didn't pull their own load. they instead were an incredible resource drain on the rest of the population of the tribe, until the tribe was invaded and dispersed by a neighboring, more self-sufficient bunch. Ironically, while the few remaining lived scattered in caves, the Bug went to work for the new king.
It was The Bug, probably not the songs in question, that was the problem.
This is not a religion debate, however, I really think all of you that believe all muslims mis treat their women should do some studdying. Specially if you are Christian, and learn about some of the things that have, and still go on among the Christian faith, even here in America. Yes religion is odd, but all Muslims are not women haters, and many of the perceived mis treatments aren't actually. As was pointed out some people like the way things are.
Yes Leo guardian, all valid points and thank you for bringing them up. The influence of the fundamentalist camp on a certain political party makes me quite uncomfortable. The fact that one must have religious affiliation, and the right one if you all get my drift, in order to even have a chance of being elected to public office be it city, county, state, or federal, makes me cringe. (That goes for both parties to a certain degree.) What makes me ill are the constantly procreating nascar loving trailer park inhabitants who very rarely read, or watch the news, but who vote republican, because "This here, this here is god's country." and other such nonsense. The whole god and guns crowd. It's ignorant and obnoxious. And in many places, and on certain television channels etc, all a candidate has to say are a few key phrases, and boom! He's got x amount of Cleduses and Brandeenes votin for him. Nevermind real issues and such. Who has time for those... Before anyone gets pissed at that, chill out. I'm not saying that everyone who lives in the south, or likes country music etc, is like that. But, I've met a certain number who are and you've certainly seen them in the media from time to time. My oh my, what the rest of the world must think of those sound bites... The fact that a very powerful and very rich arm of any religion can have such a powerful hand in legislation, that in turn effects the population at large, is not right. I for one wish there were a true seperation of church and state, because there should be. Despite the doctored history some may spew forth, this is not a Judeo Christian nation. The fact that creationism is taught alongside, or totally in place of, darwinian evolution is an afront to science. How on Earth they pulled that one off, I don't know. Lastly, it's sad tinking about the amount of people who have become blind sheep between mega churches, tv evangelists, and the like. A prime example of victims are the little old ladies who have been conned out of money from the crying preacher on tv on sunday morning who is bringing the message of the lord into their living room... They trust him. Oh yes, and let's not forget people in the lgbt community that have been victims of hate crimes, abortion doctors who have been wounded or killed, and the fundamentalists war on planned parenthood... Oh yes, then there is the mosk issue. We have freedom of religion in this country and therefor, they have as much of a right as you do to have a building in which they can worship any folk tale or myth they choose. It's all a collection of man made stories to me, however, I would defend their right to assemble and worship all the same. Many probably won't agree with this, but in my opinion, a church is a business, and as such, it should be taxed and it's records freely available. Sermans with ultra right wing political undertones are common place, and that is also wrong. The preacher is trusted by his flock, for better or for worse. To use that position of influence and authority to push a political agenda, it's sick. Have they no shame? (Well, I guess the big money and prostitutes help some of them sleep a little better at night. Not that they all do that, but we certainly know a certain percentage have done so, and will do so in the future.)
Here here.
"...and many of the perceived mis treatments aren't actually. As was pointed out some people like the way things are."
My problem with a lot of so called Muslim womens' rights activists, both in the U S and Muslim world is they are more like kids playing Barbie dolls than grown people fighting for some legitimate human rights. Why should I care that in some countries, for examples, women tend to cover their heads when they go out and others cover their faces? I wonder if covering the face is an adaptation to climactic extremes, like blinding sand storms, or a way of preventing the spread of tuberculosis. I know many countries outside of western Europe and Canada are hot spots for this highly contagious disease, and some of 'em, like Pakistan, are Muslim majority. If I'm not mistaken if someone has that in the U S they are encouraged to cover their faces with a disposable mask as part of treatment & preventing the spread. The local public health clinic near me requires a face mask for ANY patient who is coughing while they're waiting to be seen, and I had to wear one for one visit.
Now where Mr Squid is from, Muslim women...99% of the population...typically work outside the home because food is the same price here but the salary is 1/10, so families really need both incomes, plus there is massive male unemployment there. Islamic tradition itself allows women to work, but does not force them and states a husband cannot force his wife to work outside the home, nor does the law itself require women to use any of their saved or earned money to support the family. Males are required to support family.
People in the U S have a tendency to look at scripture without looking at the historical backdrop in which it was revealed. For example, they laugh at women being possibly one of four wives yet don't learn that before this mandate men could have an unlimited number of wives and dump 'em at will, where Islamic divorce is a bit more complicated and limited to four in a society that by no means was monogamous at that time. Personally I'm not a believer of equality of the sexes, and I'm surprised my friend who majored in biology is. He laughs at women receiving half rather than all of a parent's estate, but it was mandated when many pagans observed 'primogeniture', or the first born son getting everything and everyone else getting nothing, and when men needed the estate to support a family while women were typically supported by husbands, so they didn't need 100% of the parent's estate.
If so called womens' rights activists would abandon nonsense like "a right to wear whatever they want", I'd sympathise with 'em. I support childrens' and womens' rights like the right not to be disfigured or killed, and the right for all to be educated without having their school destroyed, the right to get treated with the same dignity as men in matters like access to health care, but until they fight for rights like this and quit telling me in a horrified tone of voice about nonsense like women having a separate prayer space in the mosque I am not a supporter of such activists, and the French language sources are just as bad about this. One Moroccan woman fought "against the veil and for the rights of women", without actually specifying what those rights are. Fighting a veil...kind of like Don Quijote fighting windmills, isn't it?
Don't tell me this is where this ends... There must be more of you out there, especially college students, that recognize that openly discussing and debating these things is relevant and important... I'm disappointed that we are the only people so far that have kept this going. For all the mundane crap people discuss online day in and day out, and yet they avoid the big fish in the sea of life. Or do you just not have the balls...
They can't lmfao, geolocate or tweet about it so it can't be that important.
The sound bites are far easier to post to Twitter, Facebook, even send each other in Texts, plus, all the Facebook fan pages that spring up over a single sound bite. They're not lazy or indolent, GuitarGod: They ... let's see: arduously slide that mouse ofer the Like button, then, oh here it comes, they raise that index finger with oh so heavy a burden, and, wait for it now, here it comes, press the Like button ... and they are involved! They're making a difference!
If that isn't quite enough, they post and repost, telling all 3000 friends to repost on each other's wall. And we complained about the forwarded emails of the 90s!
Not all these are teenagers either. I'm ashamed to say I know many who are 40s and up.
In my snarky opinion, that is why you see such little discourse on this and similar subjects.
"Don't tell me this is where this ends..." I'm about talked out, but I would like to clarify one point made earlier on post 26, "It's fine that I'm not allowed to vote or have a job..." Having spent some time in a Muslim majority country, I can attest first hand that its standard of living is nothing like what it is here. Now where I spent time everyone, male and female, has the obligation to vote. Even if all you do is spit on the ballot, you must submit it. Some societies, like Iran, women vote but the polling places are separate, those for the men and those for the women. Some of the rights/lack of rights vary by country. Some folks whine about Muslim women being forced to cover more in their way of dress, but you hear very little about forcibly secular societies like Turkey and Tunisia where women who choose to cover themselves traditionally rather than dressing like more secular individuals may be beaten or worse.
As far as work outside the home, women work in many of these societies due to globalization raising prices but the salaries being relatively small. However, if you're talking about rural societies in some of these places, you're not talking about the availabilities of such conveniences like supermarkets, microwaves, or washing machines. Some places you're pumping water from a community well, perhaps even washing your clothes by hand. Work around the house is caring for any children not in school, preparing meals from scratch. A trip into the nearest town in a Renault pickup with a 5 speed manual transmission may be a luxury. Shopping may be on foot daily, to bakery for bread, butcher shop for meat, etc. Western feminists seriously expect women living in such conditions to have a career outside the home, too? For more clarification on universal suffrage in the U S, try Harry Stein's book "How I Investigated the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (And Joined It)." Many women in the 19th/early 20th Century U S actually didn't want to be involved in politics. If you ever get the chance to go to Orlando Disney World, ride the 'Wheel of Progress', which is a history of innovation in the home and in transportation. What can be done in a few hours now might take housewives days in the 19th Century. Who had the time to get informed about candidates or issues?
I'm glad we talked about more profound human rights concerns in the Middle East. I swear if I hear one more Bin Laden conspiracy story I may scream. Take up deep sea diving, find what's left, then stick a fork in it and make sure he's still dead, or, in the words of comedien Dennis Miller, "Let his beard fall to Bikini Bottom in 'Sponge Bob Square Pants', where it'll make a good coral reef", and let's get on with life already. This is better than the mundane stuff of Facebook type sites any old day.